Chris Jones in Salt Lake Tribune AGAIN

I also agree. The endings were disappointing, they were too abrupt and too similar. Plus they were nearly identical with the endings from Deus Ex 1 and 2, BioWare could have been a bit more creative there. They said they'll release a free DLC with extended endings, so I'm curious about that... But I think we can agree when we say that the ME games themselves were fantastic

I always found it funny, when people praised the ME games because of the moral (dialogue) choices as if it would be the first game ever introducing this game mechanic... *cough*The Pandora Directive*cough*

*whisper* 1988`s wasteland *whisper*

MASSIVE SPOILERS AHOY!

I see a lot of people refer to something called the "Indoctrination Theory". Well, being a stickler for details in all matters related to storytelling, I'm gonna flat out state that it is no mere theory, there is an indoctrination attempt.

The mistake I see most people making is assuming that everything you see at the end takes place inside Shepard's mind. Wrong. We see everything play out the way Shepard experiences it.

The difference being one takes place inside a comatose person's mind as a dream sequence, the other shows us the hallucinations of a person wide awake.

Think Fight Club - Edward Norton was fighting himself, but this is only visible to the audience in the brief security camera footage shots. Same thing with Shepard, except we're not treated to any outside view.

And here's the brilliance in Bioware's little scheme. It's not just Shepard being indoctrinated - it's you, the player. I'll even go one step further - Mass Effect 3 is the only game ever made that has managed to make ME the end game boss fight. There's only one real, canonical ending; what you've been trying to do the entire time. But the choice you're being given at the end is presented to you in as confusing a manner as possible - In fact I can honestly say that making what I knew in my heart was the right choice all along, was damned hard due to the way the game presented the choices.

So, yeah, some people didn't quite get it and took everything that happened literally. They bought the illusion.

Ballsy play, Bioware. Ballsy play.

Of course, the flaw was to not give players who managed the canonical, correct ending a proper send-off showing the weight of your choices. Think something akin to the end of Fallout 1 and 2, where every location you've visited and even some main characters have their epilogue presented to you in slideshow format. This gives you a proper, fleshed-out ending, complete with closure.

Oh, and the whole argument about the mass relays exploding and killing everyone? That particular information came from a most untrustworthy source. Again, think Fight Club; Edward Norton defusing a bomb, with Brad Pitt telling him "Not the green one! Pull anyone but the green one!"

As to us seeing the Normandy making a run for it - that's shown when Shepard is near death. As the video clips show fairly similar outcomes, they most likely just represent Shepard's last hope - his squadmates making it out okay, somehow, somewhere.

And the two-second clip of someone in an N7 armor taking a breath? Just final proof that the mass relays didn't kill everyone.

Whoa. I didn't realize how much I've been itching to get that out. I guess people who complain about the ending just set my teeth on edge. I know it sounds horribly elitist to claim that some people just "didn't get it", but... A lot of people really didn't.

Making an ending like this is extremely difficult, there's a lot of work involved, and a huge, gigantic risk. But they had the guts for it, and I applaud them for it.

So again, on a personal note, I think it's one of the most sublime, fantastic endings to a video game ever made. Most likely we'll never see it's like again.

Just my tuppeny thoughts.

-Fred

The main problem was Bioware hyped up their games as being a fully emergent nonlinear story built on choices and consequences.. what we got was more along the lines of rail cover shooter with a non-linear story that linearitizes out towards the end... That's why it sucked.

However that said, Deus Ex 1 did this too, but the thing that worked with Deus Ex 1 was that you at least got to see the world you had created based on your choice.

Compare this to Deus Ex 3... wow.. Deus Ex 3 was a far far far worse ending than Mass Effect 3.
At least Mass Effect 3 actually had copy-pasted footage of ingame cutscenes. Deus Ex 3 just used old stock footage from WW2, Iraq, Vietnam, and the GFC.. in a frankly hypocritical joke of a moral highground rant towards the world (Which the GFC thing was forking funny as hell given that Square Enix basically GOT Deus Ex as an IP because of it.. forking Hypocrites).

Point is... Talk the talk... Walk the Walk.

That said, my expectations of Chris are high.. Don't let us down . I believe in your abilities and I can't wait to see what you have in store for us.

mr_cyberpunk wrote:The main problem was Bioware hyped up their games as being a fully emergent nonlinear story built on choices and consequences.. what we got was more along the lines of rail cover shooter with a non-linear story that linearitizes out towards the end... That's why it sucked.

However that said, Deus Ex 1 did this too, but the thing that worked with Deus Ex 1 was that you at least got to see the world you had created based on your choice.

Compare this to Deus Ex 3... wow.. Deus Ex 3 was a far far far worse ending than Mass Effect 3.
At least Mass Effect 3 actually had copy-pasted footage of ingame cutscenes. Deus Ex 3 just used old stock footage from WW2, Iraq, Vietnam, and the GFC.. in a frankly hypocritical joke of a moral highground rant towards the world (Which the GFC thing was forking funny as hell given that Square Enix basically GOT Deus Ex as an IP because of it.. forking Hypocrites).

Point is... Talk the talk... Walk the Walk.

That said, my expectations of Chris are high.. Don't let us down . I believe in your abilities and I can't wait to see what you have in store for us.

The recent article I wrote touched on this exact topic, of how the modern publisher's idea of "cinematic gaming" is a bit of a joke. I agree 100%

-Cub. =o)

Cubase wrote:
That said, my expectations of Chris are high.. Don't let us down . I believe in your abilities and I can't wait to see what you have in store for us.

The recent article I wrote touched on this exact topic, of how the modern publisher's idea of "cinematic gaming" is a bit of a joke. I agree 100%

-Cub. =o)

I hope the guys can bring back all the gamers like me that just plain gave up on buying the new expensive games. They are mostly sequels and duplications and not worth my time. I've just been blowing my money buying cheap casual games waiting for a worthy game to come along. I've got faith in Chris and Aaron to deliver something good. I'd rather they spend the money making sure the game has a spectacular story than any fancy special effects.

First off i will say i agree with Fred on the ending..

But after reading a lot about what it "missed" i cant but agree to that as well, cause there is a hole lot missing, for me who used the same charecter trhough all the games and tryed my hardest to stay paragon and save every soule i could save (at least on my first play trough).

In retrospect i cant say i was disapointed when i saw the end for the first time, but then again i dident go back and see what the other choices (at the end) did so I felt fulfiled but empty at the same time.. like somthing inside me died.

When i saw the Normandy SR2 flying off and all i saw was Joker, Edi (guess what ending i got) and Liara walked out of the ship i thought, 'but what happened to the rest of my crew?'. Even though i love the ending there is still stuff that i would want to know, like what did my crew do after they landed on that lush planet ? did they have to resort to canibalism? what happened to Miranda, Rex and all my other companions from the other games? For Bioware to leve me hanging like that is messed up. Some of it might be cleared up in the DLC but you cant play after Sheppard "dies" so what happens to SR2 and the ship's crew wil allways be the same. If i played the game and dident read all the stuff posted about the ending this wouldent be a problem but now it kinda is

Just a warning, dont watch Ancient Aliens right before the end off ME3, it leaves you messed up

I hope the guys can bring back all the gamers like me that just plain gave up on buying the new expensive games. They are mostly sequels and duplications and not worth my time. I've just been blowing my money buying cheap casual games waiting for a worthy game to come along. I've got faith in Chris and Aaron to deliver something good. I'd rather they spend the money making sure the game has a spectacular story than any fancy special effects.

Yeah that's the thing I realize.. that for all my bitching about Casual gamers, there's a pretty big majority that are old gamers that had to give up on video games either for career or family reasons, or simply that games these days just weren't something they were interested in (frankly I support that stance, because yes most modern games are shithouse and culturally bankrupt).

For the majority that just dump money into $#it like Zynga's games though, I have no respect. But for the other majority that were once big into gaming back in its day and are waiting on something to play, I definitely have thought of those people when designing games. A big part of my design influence right now seems to be integration of adventure mechanics into the greater sphere of genres that we have today, mainly because Adventure games tend to lean more in favor of casuals yet still offer incredible depth for how minimalist their designs are. (which is why Pandora is just epic, because it took that minimalism and actually incorporated it somewhat into a real game- not just a Cinematic Movie attached to a game. The introduction of a currency system in Pandora is a biggy. We saw similar mechnaics used in Interplay's Neuromancer as well (which to be fair is more RPG- but still very strong in adventure mechanic- I'm a huge fan of that game).)

I also have borrowed a stance from Richard Garriot where casuals can be incorporated with hardcore mechanics in the form of Combat and Non-Combat roles. Example, a military needs soldiers, but it also needs food to feed those soldiers, the bakery divisions can consist of casuals, same with the medical staff as well, the military roles however comprise of entirely hardcores- there is co-operation and enjoyment for both sides involved.

We're seeing the term "HARDCORE-CASUAL" or "AAA Casual" which seem contradictory, what they really mean is 1. Casual gamers that are prepared to play a casual title longer than they should and 2. Casual games designed to increase in complexity over time (as in the game starts off fairly meh.. and then evolves into something short of being a hardcore experience. There's a lot of Iphone games now that cater to that).

In the end Casual should have always been more as a bridge between genres, not segregation. Unfortunately though the industry is full of assholes where it has to be one or the other.. and if you say "This game sucks" they just tell you "This games not for you" /End BIOWARE because that's the stance they took with Mass Effect 3. If its not for me.. STOP forking ADVERTISING ON SITES I'M INTERESTED IN THEN!

/Wall 'O Text

This same thing happened with the show Lost's last episode.
I'll admit.... i didn't fully get it at first.


Also, cube.... is you avatar from Watership Down? Is that supposed to be Fiver or one of the other bunnies?

lestat666 wrote:Also, cube.... is you avatar from Watership Down? Is that supposed to be Fiver or one of the other bunnies?

I like that avatar. Yeah it's Watership Down. That's BigWig. Funny name but don't say that to his face :s
I also thought the earlier episodes of the TV series was good too and the soundtrack was great, production quality went downhill at the end though.

I have come across the indoctrination theory before. Here's my problem with it: If a good section of the game is spent with Shepard tripping balls and you can't tell for sure what is real, then why should I care? If I do not get a trustworthy indication of the consequences of choices, what's the point of making those choices in the first place? That sounds like the equivalent of if the Blade Runner game at the very end showed McCoy lying comatose in a hospital bed and suggested that an indefinite portion of the game happened only in his head.

Now, I am not saying that a story which only happens inside the head of a person is inherently a bad thing. However, in that case I think you would need a very compelling main character to keep you interested in figuring out what's going on in his/her mind. With Mass Effect that does not work due to the extent by which the player can shape Shepard's personality.

Ballsy? If that is what they were going on, yes. Enjoyable? Not in my opinion.

As a side note, I think the indoctrination theory is giving Bioware too much credit. The writing in their games is not exactly known for subtle nuances, but tends towards "we'll have party members spill out their life stories so you can appreciate all the backstory and depth we gave them" style in-your-face approach.

Sai wrote:

lestat666 wrote:Also, cube.... is you avatar from Watership Down? Is that supposed to be Fiver or one of the other bunnies?

I like that avatar. Yeah it's Watership Down. That's BigWig. Funny name but don't say that to his face :s
I also thought the earlier episodes of the TV series was good too and the soundtrack was great, production quality went downhill at the end though.

Bingo.

Loved the book, loved the movie, loved the TV series.

-Cub. =o)

I didn't know there was a tv series.

I just thought there was a book and a movie.

You read the sequel too?

lestat666 wrote:I didn't know there was a tv series.

I just thought there was a book and a movie.

You read the sequel too?

Tales from Watership Down? No, not yet. I plan to though.

-Cub. =o)