Star Trek review thread.

In the same vein, considering the size of Nero's ship, shouldn't there be years between the front and the rear going through? If so, or if not, where do you draw the line?

Joel wrote: In the future when the star goes supernova, the blackhole created allows Nero and Spock to travel back through time. Nero goes through first and gets a 25 year headstart ahead of Spock when really the difference between Nero and Spock's entry into the wormhole was less than a minute...would those mere seconds really translate into over two decades?

Yes very much so... due to time dilation experienced by those closer to the event horizon of a wormhole, the closer you get the slower time appears to be for those observing from a safe distance (or in this case, on the other side of the wormhole). So while it would appear to the second party that they went or were going through the wormhole merely seconds after the first party did (at normal speed), to the first party (having already gone beyond the event horizon and thus removed themselves from the time dilation field) the actions of the first party would appear so slow that it may take hours, months, decades or even centuries for them to catch up depending on the size of the wormhole.

Does that make sense?

-Cub. =o)

I have to agree with Frank... If indeed there is a Time Gap in entering the hole, wouldn't the Bridge of the ship be years older than say the Engine Room??? Making the Command crew on the Bridge Old Folk while the Engineering crew were still young bucks...

Frank wrote:In the same vein, considering the size of Nero's ship, shouldn't there be years between the front and the rear going through? If so, or if not, where do you draw the line?

Well, given that the ship is 1 large mass, the black hole may not "consume" and transfer it through time until the whole thing has been captured since it's one large object, kind of like when we chew 1 piece of food, very rarely will we have it on our pallete and swallow only half of what is there.

That's a tricky one guys... but I will try and explain it as best I can:

when speakign of black holes and wormholes have you ever heard someone say: "If you are about to go through a black hole, you will be torn apart"... well this theory is an explanation for that which Frank mentioned. As you get closer to the event horizon of a wormhole, the time dilation gets stronger, so essentially if a human body went through head first, the time difference would stretch the body until it was physically impossible to sustain its original shape, thus being torn apart.

However... that is based on the physics outside of the time dilation field. Within the field, the laws of physics are skewed, so it is plausible for the body to maintain a proper molecular structure within the environment. remember, to anyone approaching the black hole time will occur normal to them.

So, in explaining the ship of Nero's size: Yes, to everyone outside of the time dilation field at the wormholes entry point you will notice a significant difference in time between the front and back of the ship. Even the ship's inhabitants will notice differences between the front most and back most crew. But once the ship exits the other side all time will be restored. It is physically impossible for someone to age more than someone else when they are going through a black hole, provided that they both end up making it to the other side.

A real world example of this would be if you were to take an elastic band in your hands and stretch it out slowly by moving only your right hand away from your left. Eventually you will get slower and slower (caus of resistance) but at the same time the molecular structure of the rubber band causes the left hand to begin moving to the right as well... ableit, more slowly. Eventually let go (thus simulating the effect of the whole object passing through the wormhole sucessfully) and it will snap back to normal again.


Now...

In the case of most Sci-Fi series, they tend to change the time dilation laws to make the field encompass entire objects (or ships) regardless of their size and relative distance from the wormhole. While this may be incorrect, it serves as a more practical method for the sake of the story, as technically to the internal observer there is not distortion of time and space... just a pop in and pop out the other side experience. Stargate also gets around this by equating the molecular deconstruction (and subsequent re-construction) of all objects as a technological feature of the Stargate network, handled on both ends of an immediate event horizon (without an apparent time dilation field, which is possible, but only sustainable via external influence and a massive amount of energy... hence, a Stargate).

Make sense?

-Cub. =o)

Most of it, but I'm still a little confused as to where you draw the line.

I realise the ship is one large entity with a distinct structure, regardless of size, but I'm concerned about the people inside of it and the space between them.

Let's put it another way. There wouldn't have been any significant difference in time if Spock's ship had been entrapped in Nero's ship, right? In fact there would have been none. But if Spock's ship had been linked, or attached, by, say, a rope, and remained at the same distance, would it have been englobed as one, like the elastic, or would there have still been a 25-year difference for those on the other side of the wormhole?

Essentially to everyone on the ship, and on Spock's ship (if it was tied to a rope trailing behind), there would be no change in time. They would see the hole ahead, go through it at normal speed and pop through on the other side instantaneously. The people at the exit point would experience no delay either. Only the observers outside of the dilation field at the entry point would see the time distortion of those going through.

Also remember, what causes distortion is gravity, and essentially gravity does not scrutinize based on individual objects, and how they are connected. It effects space, and thus everything within that space. So it is impossible for the rules to change on a per-object level.

So to answer your question, the 25 year delay is only experienced by those at the wormhole's entry point, but who are outside of the wormholes gravity. So in the case of the story, Nero knew this, and he went through the hole instantly. But he also knew that for the people outside the entry point it would take them 25 years to validate Nero's ship. Meaning he could not actually return until this happened at risk of breaking the laws of time and space.

-Cub. =o)

Okay I'm starting to get a headache... Starting to get a little too technical for me...

I'm puzzled about something from the movie though... Nero went through, did what he did to Kirk's father, okay... What did he do for the next 25 years??? Did he just find a moon to land on and count the days until Spock was to appear??? And how did he know that is was a 25 year difference from when he appeared and Spock would appear??? If he entered another Black Hole, how could he assume he would be re-entering at the proper time and place???

This is why I try to avoid technical discussions about movies... You start pulling it apart to figure out how or why it works the way it did and you start losing the thrill of the movie...

Take Warp or Light Speed for example... Lets say we finally get it to work, but yet it works completely different than what Star Trek or Star Wars or any other Sci-Fi Story has decided that it works... What then will we think of those movies knowing that the theory behind them is completely wrong???

Bafitis wrote: Take Warp or Light Speed for example... Lets say we finally get it to work, but yet it works completely different than what Star Trek or Star Wars or any other Sci-Fi Story has decided that it works... What then will we think of those movies knowing that the theory behind them is completely wrong???

Same thing we thought when we realised that despite the original Lost In Space, all asteroids are not made up of scrunched up balls of tinfoil.

-Cub. =o)

Cubase wrote:

Bafitis wrote: Take Warp or Light Speed for example... Lets say we finally get it to work, but yet it works completely different than what Star Trek or Star Wars or any other Sci-Fi Story has decided that it works... What then will we think of those movies knowing that the theory behind them is completely wrong???

Same thing we thought when we realised that despite the original Lost In Space, all asteroids are not made up of scrunched up balls of tinfoil.

-Cub. =o)

Funny, but low budgets don't count...

Cub, your reasoning is sound and you explain yourself seven ways from awesome!

-Fred

Oh I agree his Explanations are clear and very reasonable... Still gives me a headache... It's all suppose to be for entertainment... Now if there were a chance Black Holes and such would be studied in my life time, I would probably want to pick Cub's brain with a fine toothed comb for knowledge...

Discussing the seemingly impossible and all but theoretical is illuminating, fascinating and exciting. However, the bottom line is this: Who cares? j/k

Actually, this movie raises several questions, many of which have been and will continue to be extrapolated on this board. I have a few myself but I won't mention them at this time. Why not? I am still reeling over this film! Fantastic! I took the wife yesterday and she agrees: the best ST yet. I've seen it twice and will probably go again. Seeing it on the big screen has its advantages and I want to relish in this movie to the max.

Oh my technicalities are not in any way interfering with the joy experienced while being star trekly entertained, Jim

It's all in good fun, for the sake of space discussions. Professor Cub is in session, might as well squeeze him off!