I think its time we all give up on FMV.

I'm not sure it would take half a game to explain the cliffhanger since 90 to 95% of Overseer was about the Carl Linsky case. The style should be the same but the make the gamers find the answers to their own questions by playing previous games.

Agreed

I also think that is a very good idea.

Anyway Mr Cyberpunk, I really didnt take any offense. Im sure you have reasons to feel the way I do, but I still dont think it is a given that a pc port to a console will be a failure.

In reverse they actually work quite well. Example, Halo. However for some reason its a process of going from Simplicity-complexity vs complexity-simplicity. clearly the 1st way is easier because simplifying something that is complex is really hard. Hence my point, and I don't take offense to anything you've said. I encourage debate. Excuse my violent rhetoric though

Before I type anything, I want to let you know Mr. cybepunk, that yes, I do too love a debate, and I took no offense from anything. And I really hope you take no offense from mine...

With that being said ...

Okay, yes, I understand where you're coming from, and the points you're making. But let's look at this from my point of view for a moment. I have a viewpoint on the conversion of games from the PC to Console. And I do agree with you on a few points. Other points, not so much.

I was into computer gaming for about one year. One. That's it. It was during that time period, I had a pentium 100 that my father purchased for me, and I just loved it. I think the Pandora Directive was my first purchase (I played it on a PC Gamer demo disc, I do believe, and got hooked. The only playable part of the demo was a few conversations, and Elijah Witt's apartment.), and then Destruction Derby, Quake, The two quake mission packs, Diablo, Ultima Online, and that about did it. I only played Overseer because I had a friend that I turned on to the Pandora Directive when I had it, and he loved it so much, he went out and bought a UAKM, Pandora, Overseer three pack thingie, and he let me borrow it. But I get away from my point, if I have one ...

You see, late 96 - early 98, those were the only years I ever gamed on a PC. I started out my gaming on the NES, playing Mario, graduated to the Genesis, and then the Playstation (Missed the SNES revolution), Ps2, Xbox, and now the Xbox 360. So you see, I've only had access to the games that have been created for these systems. These dumbed down controls you speak of? They're only dumbed down if you've played it on a PC first, because without ever seeing the PC counterpart, I don't have a starting point for the controls to be "dumbed down". Some examples? Oblivion, Morrowind, Lord of the Rings: Battle for Middle Earth. They all played great to me.

I tell you one of the most fun, involving, and great games I ever played on the Xbox was Dues Ex 2. I'll never forget that game. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the game. It played smoothly, it had a killer story, and it was tough as nails in some spots. (Due to the fact that you had to conserve ammo, or risk being out when you needed it the most.) A perfect game, in my opinion. So why didn't it sell? They took a major chance in releasing that kind of game to that kind of platform, and it didn't do too well. The world wasn't ready for a FPS, Roleplaying, Adventure game all mashed up into one. But it didn't help that the marketing for the game was s*it, the box art was blah (The pictures on the back of the dvd box didn't show much in the way of graphical quality. Hey, don't tell me box art and screenshots don't sell games. I used to work at Gamestop. You'd be amazed.) and it was released at the same time a whole bunch of high profile titles were also being released. Timing is key. Is it possible for a "new type" of game to be released on a console, and succeed? After watching Okami fall flat on it's ass, and it was soooo good, it makes you want to say no ... But I think it's possible with the right planning.

What are the consoles all about right now? FPS. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's what people love, and to be honest, if you've played Gears of War, you know that they're doing them, and doing them well. Any Tom Clancy game seems to be instant gold too. These are all great games, but they're genre specific. If you don't like shooting things, hey, you're not going to like the console game scene right now. Because that, and Oblivion, is the only thing going on in it.

I would love to see a new generation of Tex Murphy on a console. But to me, things would have to change, and like it or not, it would be things we may or may not be able to live with.

So the question I ask you, is this ... would you be able to accept a Tex Murphy game if it *did* break off from the traditions it already established, in order to make it more accessible for the casual gamer? (I.E. FPS or something like that) Because let's be honest here, the casual gamer equals buys ... and the buys equal justification for actually making the game. Or would you rather say R.I.P. Tex, it was fun while it lasted?

As I said before. You can't make a game the way 400 people would like you to make it, at the risk of alienating a whole new consumer base. You have to have demand. Having supply without the demand is what kills companies. Why do all the games that are coming out seem to be utter crap to you? Because the majority of the people buying these games just don't happen to like what you like. And because companies know that what they *do* like will be profitable, whether they halfass their way through the game, or not. It's a hard pill to swallow. It's exactly why I think ShadowRun is following the path it's on.

I jumped around a bit, and kinda just typed as I was thinking. But yeah, there it is.

I fully agree with you... Except with the whole Deus Ex 2 part.

The reason why it flopped is because it abandoned what made Deus Ex great. (I know a few people who have written detailed articles on this very subject, and I'd gladly hook you up with the links.) Don't forget that Deus Ex on the PS2 also flopped. (mainly due to its dumbed down controls and crappy loading.) I can understand how to translate the Tex Murphy interface to console, but I think later porting to consoles would suffice rather than make all formats all at once. PC is a testing platform anyway.

I for one hate the Mass market, but unfortunately that's all that exists in today's games industry. Hence the games are like barely even half the quality of what previously existed. That's why I'm a bit scared of a new Tex Murphy.

After the failure of Overseer vs the success of UAKM and PD you can see why I'm concerned about moving too far away from UAKM. Don't get me wrong, I love pushing the envelope and making something new, I just think that its similar to the starwars thing, in that you can push it WAY to far away from what worked previously, and hence make it nothing like what people expected. So basically "if it works, don't bother fixing it" policy towards the style, that way the gameplay and storyline shines over all else. And I think that was the sort of direction that AC wanted to go down where the storyline truly shines.

In reading your various responses we have reached a conclusion which states:

1. In order to make a Tex Murphy game successful it would have to adhere to current market trends, which in its most successful form would be a console game.

2. If a Tex game was to be made using traditional techniques it would only appeal to the established fan base, hence no where near as many resources would be poured into its production.


These are very fair assumptions that I cannot argue with. Now, lets take a look at a solution to somehow merge these two together and develop something that will work for everybody...

This would mean a new Tex game would need to appeal to gamers, but not stray too far from the 'Tex Murphy Style'...

Now what is one gaming market which is currently being re-developed alongside technological advancements in console gaming, yet not perfect yet? This is the casual gamer market. The gamers who play games if they find something appealing, rather than just constanly buy title after title after title. But of course, this market is overshadowed by the hardcore gamer market. The folks who will but an Xbox or a PS2 just to play it 24/7. And so, it's no surprise most families will reserve the console to the young boys in the 16-24 bracket, and never touch it.

Now, what have technology developers (predominantly influenced by Microsoft) been trying to develop in the meantime for the rest of the market? They have been trying to centralize your entertainment base in the living room. Look at media centre PCs, HD televisions and movies, and of course Music! This is a market that appeals to everybody and statistically it is the 24-26 age bracket which is really embracing the centralized entertainment unit.

So here we have:

Market A: 16-24 only really interested in gaming entertainment in the living room
Market B: 24-36 interested is movies and music entertainment in the living room.


Mash it all together and you will need to develop something using the technology that excites market A, and somehow get market B to embrace it:

A game, with killer visuals, and with a strotyline as cinematic as a movie, that contains modern flavours and is not typecasted into any particularly 'tagged' gaming markets (such as FPS's) and is something not only a hard core gaming kid can play, but the whole family can engage in. This automatically exempts it from the top 3 gaming genres at the moment (Shooters, RPG, Strategies, Sims and Sporting).


Lets find out how we managed to pull of this marketing boom in the mid 90s for the PC:

To quote Chris Jones, the success of Under a Killing Moon and The Pandora Directive can be pinned down to: "Now computers are finally living up to the hype that you've heard"... and he was exactly right, everyone (including adults) in the mid 1990s were getting into PC gaming, and hence the adventure genre shines because it appealed to a vast range of folks, and was not something 'typically gamer like'.

That has since died down, and the PC market distinguished only kept alive by the hardcore gamers.

Now consoles are about to reach that same stageof evolution. Companies are hyping up the computer and console as THE tool for entertainment in the living room, and we are about to hit that point where we will be able to say: "Now consoles are finally living up to the hype that you've heard". Once we hit that point in time we will have everyone from all ages interested in getting a piece of the action once again. Stories as good as hollywood films, visuals as good as HD video, music as good as what's comercially available, and interactivity... heck, who would not want this in their living room! But, you need something that exemplifies the abolve qualities and well, otherwise you will not turn heads.

Even though developers don't want to do this at the moment (amidst fears of not scoring a 'secured' and guranteed market)... It will happen eventually.

And when it does, this is the time that would be the best time to bring Tex Murphy back into the land of the living because the market from which it had most success would be re-opened.


So, what we have is a matter of timing... for a new Tex Murphy game to succeed in the form in which it once shined, it's all about timing. Otherwise, you would have to sacrifice something.... becuase unless timed right you would not be able to convince developers and distributors to give your title the suppport it needs.

That's my 2 cents.

-Cub. =o)

I aggree whole-heartedly with Cyberpunk's "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy, at least with regard to The Tex Murphy series.

I guess the question is: Would porting the game on a console platform necessarily constitute "fixing" it and thereby changing the very character that made it unique and beloved?

This question is certainly debatable.

Although I don't own or play console games, I do in fact have a deep and particular interest in game interfaces. In particular, 3D navigation and interaction with scene objects. This is because, over the last couple years, I have been developing my own 3D engine for the PC. My engine is very similar to the what you see in UAKM and Pandora but it is also not unlike what you find in many FPS games. I have studied all of these interfaces as background for developing my own engine.

The Tex Murphy interface requires the following 3D navigation capabilities: rotate left, rotate right, tilt up, tilt down, move forward, move back, slide left, slide right, raise or lower eyepoint. In addition to these navigation controls, it also requires the user to be able to select and/or, if actionable, get or activate a scene object.

Most of the puzzles are manipulated in a zoomed-in special environment, so I don't count those as part of the general interface. Dialog and character interaction is also separate and done with a menu system.

It seems to me that all of these controls are easily adaptable to the console system and I don't see any reason why a TM game can't be faithfully ported to a game console.

The problem, apparently, lies not so much with the hardware as it does with the marketing people. A new TM game aimed at appealing to the majority of console gamers will necessarily involve too many action sequences. Not enough to please the action-game fans, but enough to alienate the core TM fans. The game will utterly fail.

However, who says the game has to be aimed at the action-game crowd? I don't see any reason why a TM game can't be faithfully adapted to the console and aimed directly at the adventure-game community.

The console game developers have just one market right now. Action. And although it is wise to continue to develop more new products for that market, it is not wise to have all your eggs in one basket. It might be wiser for the game systems to try and develop new markets. There are a lot of people out there who will never buy a game system to play acton games on, but who will be happy to buy one for a different genre. Developers are likely to achieve more growth by growing a new market than they are by trying to expand their existing market with something that is incompatible to it.

So I'm not automatically against the console. I am sure a TM game can be faithfully implemented onto it. The problem is to get the developers to recognize that the new game is supposed to appeal to a significantly different base than the action game. They should not perceive it as abandoning their base. They will continue to make action games for that base. But must think of it as cultivating a completely new and separate base.

That's where our efforts have to be directed.

After reading all this, I somewhere in the middle of it all thought of the perfect console to put it on. The new Nintendo Wii, and it's motion sensing controller. If you didn't want to change the way the game is, imagine manipulating the magnifying glass with the wii-remote? Eh, just a thought.

edit- on a sidenote ...

The Wii sold 1.1 million on their launch. And no good software except Zelda. ::points at the console:: OPPERTUNITY!

Yes the WII remote is certainly interesting.

I've actually wished that the next Tex Murphy would utilize VR. During the 90s all the hype was "VR was the next thing in gaming" and it never took off.
I've experienced VR and LOVE it to death. - Thats just a little thought of mine.

I do agree with Cub to a point, they do definitely need to be more friendly to families and more accessible. At the same time they must continue to develop the same quality games that they've been developing for an entire decade or two.

With the creation of the DVD player, and further more the Media Center I also agree that this is something that should be looked into, it could improve the immersion qualities of the game by giving a cinematic feel to it.

The Tex Murphy interface requires the following 3D navigation capabilities: rotate left, rotate right, tilt up, tilt down, move forward, move back, slide left, slide right, raise or lower eyepoint. In addition to these navigation controls, it also requires the user to be able to select and/or, if actionable, get or activate a scene object.

I've actually developed an Interface design that resolves this for another project that I worked on as a hobby where it utilities 100% of the mouse buttons and 0% of the keyboard. It would work with Tex Murphy's design quite well. Overseer did this VERY terribly, PD did it alright but had interface flaws that eventually got even worse in Overseer. First thing if anything for the next game, FIX THE BLOODY GUI! because its been the most complained about feature of TM from critics.

Holy moly. That would be just too excellent! Think of it - the first full-range detective game for the modern console. With a Wii, you'd search rooms, manipulate objects, physically solve puzzles - maybe even get in on a low-scale, Tex-style grapple with a crook. All the time with the inimitable Chris Jones voice of Tex lending his wry humor to the experience. Gosh, that's something I think the erstwhile Access boys could sell. I'd give up FMV for the cutscenes if I could play Tex in such an awesome format. What do you think?

I've got a Wii, and I personally have a blast with it. I usually play the Wii sports game that came with it, but I think an adventure game would be a lot of fun..PLUS!!!! It's an extremely family friendly system. While I was in lines (ugh) this Christmas trying to get ahold of one, I ran across lots of parents that were as eager to use it as their kids. Also WAY cheaper than a PS3.

Whatever works!

BTW, I finally got to play Amped 3, and OMG it's hilarious. AC really did an awesome job. All very tongue in cheek, wacky stuff. Fun!!

When the PS3 in my opinion ir an overhyped and overpriced POS. The only thing that is still carrying the console hype is the name, and the BlueRay player...

Incidentaly, there are confirmed reports that the porn industry is choosing HD-DVD as their format, as Sony refuses to allow the industry to use BlueRay discs. The porn industry's use of VHS tape over BetaMax in the 80's was the most defined nail in Beta's coffin, and it might be the nail in BlueRay's coffin too... considering the porn industry is the largest video produciton indtustry.

So all those folks who seek to but a PS3 influenced by its BlueRay capabilities might get a rude shock to find out that nobody will end up producing BlueRay titles in favour of HD-DVD, thus making the console no better than a next-gen gaming console no better than an Xbox with an useless disc format.

Oh I love format wars!

-Cub. =o)

Only problem with HD-DVD is that its a minor improvement. vs BluRay which is a massive jump from DVD. I can actually see us using both as they are useful for all sorts of different situations. And from the looks of things, both parties don't look like backing down.

So what will TM use is beyond me. If TM was to avoid disc swaping then bluray. If TM needs to be cheaply done vs the hassle then HD-DVD. Personally I think HD-DVD will be the Medium for TM. So long as its using cinematic over FMV. If it were FMV I'd be going Bluray definitely.

Just getting us back on topic