Unofficial Tex Murphy

I'm positive that i'm getting older, I must be. Usually imagery on the news and in the media doesn't affect me that much. But the recent images of what's happening in London truly has shocked me. Over 400 arrested, countless acts of property damage and looting. What's frightening is that the perpetrators are younger than me, sometimes by half. It's just really strange to see it unfolding. While England is our furtherest neighbour, it still hits very close to home given our history together. I refuse to believe that all of this, all these people and all this damage simply stems from the shooting of one man.

This is like terrorism. I hope no one knows anybody who is stuck over there, it truly looks like hell.

No I think the shooting just ignited the fire that was brewing in london for some time.. with the huge amount of really poor english youth just getting steped on again and again.. bin reading alot about it in ouer news papers and i think this is slightly posetiv, in the sence that England might abollish theyr class system. Witch i think is really about time.

i dont see this as terrorism i see it more as libiration.

Imagin yourself really poor, no hope no money, your "girlfriend" has just gotten a baby, your in a total loss, and what do the state do? they cut 75% of the funding that is going into wellfeare to the "lower" and middel classes. Theyr youth clubs have bin shut down and they have no where to go. While you get poorer the rich gets richer, and there is nothing you can do about it. Then the police shoot a guy who probobly has the same starting point as yourself, and the gunnpowder in your head explodes.

This might be a turning point for England.

I dont know how you guys in Australia have it with all this Brittish class systems, but in norway we are all equal (or thats the theori) but we can all achive the same things, in England if you are born high class you have the world at your feet but if your low class you allmost have nothing.

and yeah i just read that they think the riot is spreading to liverpool now.

Dread your comments couldn't be more wrong. There is no class system here any more than there is anywhere else, we are not living in the 1800s.

This is also not liberation of things. People are mindlessly burning down homes and businesses, where people live, where people earn their living, and it's mostly teenagers doing it running around in mobs because they seem to think its fun.

To suggest that it's as a result of the police shooting is completely wrong. It has nothing to do with that. The police here are afraid as to what to do. There are about 50,000 police on the streets trying to do a good job. When one of them gets it wrong the media are on them like a ton of bricks and because of that they're afraid to use violence to stop what is going on.

Not half of london are without money, poor and with pregnant girlfriends as you seem to think, and the guy who was killed was NOT a normal guy. He was a guy carrying a gun, which in this country is illegal. You don't go round carrying a gun without deserving what you get. Also it was a man who was rumoured to be part of a gang involved in black on black crime and he was apparently highly involved in gang crime. It was NOT a normal guy going about his business. Your comments are misinformed and ill educated guesses.

Do some real research before you make comments like those on this board. They are frankly offensive.

we are not living in the 1800s.

*Spits out brandy* pffffffff *Monocle pops off*

We're Not?! Oh heavens.. I must inform the gentleman's club post-haste.. Simpkins! prepare my carriage.

Honestly I hope this rioting isn't still happening when I travel to Europe later in the year, I intend on visiting London.

dread wrote:No I think the shooting just ignited the fire that was brewing in london for some time.. with the huge amount of really poor english youth just getting steped on again and again.. bin reading alot about it in ouer news papers and i think this is slightly posetiv, in the sence that England might abollish theyr class system. Witch i think is really about time.

i dont see this as terrorism i see it more as libiration.

To me this sounds eerily close to the ethos of Mao Tse Sung's Little Red Book which is an ideology I am vehemently against. History has proven (Russia and China) that a violent revolution simply begets more violence. Democracy has never been born out of such perilously planted foundations such as the revolt we are seeing.

Also, how do we know this is class based? The riots are breaking out all over England. It could easily be related to race, gender or age.

Imagin yourself really poor, no hope no money, your "girlfriend" has just gotten a baby, your in a total loss, and what do the state do? they cut 75% of the funding that is going into wellfeare to the "lower" and middel classes. Theyr youth clubs have bin shut down and they have no where to go. While you get poorer the rich gets richer, and there is nothing you can do about it. Then the police shoot a guy who probobly has the same starting point as yourself, and the gunnpowder in your head explodes.

While that scenario sounds horrible, it also grossly oversimplifies the issue. There has been much speculation and evidence of this outbreak as being conceived from the shooting, the psychology and sociology behind it is still unfolding. As for your "class" scenario, again, this is happening all over the UK. You'll also notice that many of the perpetrators are below the age of 18. I doubt the man who was shot had the same starting point as these very young adolescents.

Just for the record, if I were in that situation, being the person I am, i'd be thinking about the example I want to set for my children. I'd then do everything in my power to secure some form of employment so I can put food on the table rather than recklessly run the risk of being arrested or killed in a blaze of glory leaving, very selfishly, my girlfriend and child to fend for themselves.

This might be a turning point for England.

No. Please refer to Brixton riots.

I dont know how you guys in Australia have it with all this Brittish class systems, but in norway we are all equal (or thats the theori) but we can all achive the same things, in England if you are born high class you have the world at your feet but if your low class you allmost have nothing.

"Class" is actually a political theory. It's not an established infrastructure or formalised process. The economy certainly does have the proclivity to divide, but this issue of "class" that you refer to is prevalent throughout all Western Democracies. Frankly, I wouldn't have it any other way because the lifeblood of a Western Democracy is the liberty to make a choice rather than be branded under some maxim of equality that just happens to suit the government of the day.

The right to own property is the right to exclude. Everybody is entitled to the fruits of their labour because it promotes a very tempting incentive for productivity. Exclusive transferable and universal rights maximise the wealth of society. Private property is important because of the consequences for society. Imagine a society where there are no property rights. You’re a farmer, you plant a crop, fertilise and water it and take all steps to protect it. When the crop is ripe, your neighbour takes it. Without private property, the thief has no liability because there is no concept of private property. Therefore, there is no incentive for growing it in the first place because of this shared network of property rights. Private property rights should be allocated in such a way to allow efficiency. If there were no property rights, then the victim would have no remedy against the wrongdoer who deprives them of their use, possession or access to the property. As a result, there is a lack of incentive to do things such as grow crops.

So, Dread, if these riots are your concept of a "turning point" or a "liberation" , i'm afraid you have just missed the point entirely of a democratic society. If you're really so excited about the possibility of these riots succeeding, then look to Communist Russia and China as a model. Your opinion on this issue could not have disgusted me more and you should be ashamed to take pride in your views. Consider my argument here personal and political. A colleague of mine has a daughter in the UK at the moment, if she is harmed you can expect a personal message from me asking you if any harm brought to her is worthy of this so called "turning point". I doubt her Father would see it as worthwhile.

In fact, maybe this defenseless teenager welcomes the turning point as much as you do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq7mE3w6b_8

OKi i might have bin a bit harsh on my statment, and i take it back, i jumped to fast to a conclution before reading more about it.

Now you say that class systems are a thing of the past, i dissagree, you have your lords and ladys witch is ofcorse the overclass, whilst a normal laborer is for lack of a better word, middelclass, now then you have the unemployed, all the forginers living in cramp naborhood's, what do you call them? not the 1800? well it sure looks that way from here.

Now to the guy who got shot, yes i found out that he was a gang banging thug and the police ofcorse did the right thing, i dont know the inns and out of it did he point the gun at the police or not but oki he got shot and the perp was "packing".

What you fail to understand with my last comment is that this was the igniter, a lot of rage built up over a long strech of time, and just a little thing that normaly don't effect you can be the trigger that unleash the rampage. Im sorry if i have offended you by saying half of london is unemployed, i dont really know the figurs, but since the police has stashed out over 50000 coppers there must be a really large amout of rioters.
joel, you might be right that a violent revelution\rebellion can make a dangorus state.. just look at france who overthrue theyr monarks and got an emperor, who later was exiled and they became a republic, lets not forget a nother little contrey that defied England, yes it was your good palls the yanks. Rebbeled and then founded a republic, then killed millions of nativ americans, somthing like both china and russia if im not mistacing. But yes you are absulutly right. And i dont support any of these goverment types, but at the time thers nothing we can do about it cause we dont know what to do. But lets face it, allmost every republic to this day was forged with blood.
It could be race, gender or even age, but we see gangs that where rivals joining under one "banner" one might say, so i dont think thos are the reasons.

Yes the senario is horrible, thik about it, it might be all of the things you mentioned. the class senario is a bit out there, yes there is a lot of angry little kids out there but i dont think youl se any from the upper west side (or what your rich part is called) kids going ape, this is just speculations but if you were a spoild brat whit "nobel" blood, whould you want to mingel with the lower classes? and in a riot? of corse not.
You say you would protect your kids and set an exampel for them, and that is comendable. But would you get enugh to suport one or more kids with a low paying job, no. And thats hard realety, thats why most of these young men join these gangs or firms, doing crime to get somwere, its all an illutin cause they might end up in jail or dead. Just take a look at some black naborhoods in America. They might have the same behavior as the ons in London. and it must be horrible. remember the riots in the 60s? that ended with somthing good, and yes i can draw similaretys betwen them. People getting stomped on for a long time can trigger somthing as devestating as this.

The right to own is the right to exclude, i agree, i hate that people are using my famelys water dock in the summer to bade on, people we dont even know, but we have to let them, its the law, we built that with ouer own hands and now every man and his horse can use it.

And to finish this off, no i dont think this was a good thing, and i even have friends down there as we speak. If it were allowed to spread it could go really wrong. I do not wish to offend any one of you i have started to really like you guys, but these are my opinions, and i have the right to say(write) them. cause isent that the most presios thing about a democraty that we have that right?

But now the riot is over, and people work together to return London to normalety. And thank the gods for that. But forget the past and your bound to repete it.

The riots? Over? Where'd you read that?

-Fred

dread wrote:OKi i might have bin a bit harsh on my statment, and i take it back, i jumped to fast to a conclution before reading more about it.


What you fail to understand with my last comment is that this was the igniter, a lot of rage built up over a long strech of time, and just a little thing that normaly don't effect you can be the trigger that unleash the rampage. Im sorry if i have offended you by saying half of london is unemployed, i dont really know the figurs, but since the police has stashed out over 50000 coppers there must be a really large amout of rioters.

I can kind of see what you're saying here. Yes, the riots are certainly the result of political and social tension. Again, I return to the Brixton Riots of 1981 and 1985. The themes there seem to parallel what's happening across London at the moment but keep in mind, the numbers and breadth of geography is so much wider this time. Issues concerning employment, the economy and race do come into play, but by your own admission, you do not know what the figures are - just like everybody else. There's room to speculate, but to make damning comments as you did above can easily offend, as it did.

But lets face it, allmost every republic to this day was forged with blood.
It could be race, gender or even age, but we see gangs that where rivals joining under one "banner" one might say, so i dont think thos are the reasons.

No doubt that many countries were forged with blood. My own country certainly fits into that as evinced by statements made by The High Court and the current Government. I'm not clear on what you mean by rival gangs going under "one banner" as we don't precisely know exactly whom we are dealing with. Keep in mind nearly 500 people (so far) have been arrested. It's too early to say if there are factions, gangs or if it's behaviour that's motivated by social networking. We just don't know quite enough to merely group or categorise the issues or people at play, as visible they may be.

Yes the senario is horrible, thik about it, it might be all of the things you mentioned. the class senario is a bit out there, yes there is a lot of angry little kids out there but i dont think youl se any from the upper west side (or what your rich part is called) kids going ape, this is just speculations but if you were a spoild brat whit "nobel" blood, whould you want to mingel with the lower classes? and in a riot? of corse not.

I'll keep calm here, but this is precisely the type of generalisation that resulted in my more than heated response in the above post. That is a very dangerous statement to make and I take exception to it. I was put through private schooling all my life, had family holidays every year, my parents have always driven European cars and i've always always had a very nourishing Christmas. Frankly, I don't know if that makes me upper or middle class, but I do know i'm very fortunate. To make a statement saying I wouldn't want to be with the so called "lower classes" is just as offensive as the statements you made previously. Many of my friends are from diverse socio-economic backgrounds.

What do you mean by mingle? Why wouldn't I want to mix with them if they're my friends? Even in a riot? There's more to this than "rich vs. poor".

You say you would protect your kids and set an exampel for them, and that is comendable. But would you get enugh to suport one or more kids with a low paying job, no. And thats hard realety, thats why most of these young men join these gangs or firms, doing crime to get somwere, its all an illutin cause they might end up in jail or dead. Just take a look at some black naborhoods in America. They might have the same behavior as the ons in London. and it must be horrible. remember the riots in the 60s? that ended with somthing good, and yes i can draw similaretys betwen them. People getting stomped on for a long time can trigger somthing as devestating as this.

I agree that it's hard, no doubt. But at the same time, when you see them stooping to these lows, you have to wonder why it really is that they have had to resort to that. What type of person does it really take to carry out such a level of destruction? We've all been desperate in our lives, but i'm sure we all stopped to think, at least for a second.

And to finish this off, no i dont think this was a good thing, and i even have friends down there as we speak. If it were allowed to spread it could go really wrong. I do not wish to offend any one of you i have started to really like you guys, but these are my opinions, and i have the right to say(write) them. cause isent that the most presios thing about a democraty that we have that right?

I absolutely have nothing against you making a statement on our forums and not for a second would I do anything to curtail that. But, if you choose to make a statement, you also make the choice to be read which means you need to take ownership of what you are writing. This means that you may not get the response you were hoping for.

But thank you for having a say, taking the time to clarify and reconsidering some of your positions

But now the riot is over, and people work together to return London to normalety. And thank the gods for that. But forget the past and your bound to repete it.

Not sure about this, it's calmed somewhat (at best) but still spreading in a few areas. Is the worst over? We can certainly hope.

Wow!! Two people having a "heated" discussion on a message board that didn't devolve into a bunch of expletives, name calling, or rage posts. That's very refreshing!!
Members of this board are, truly, an exceptionally rare breed.

A tip of the Fedora to you gents.

Joel, I hope and pray that you and yours remain safe during all of this....

Just wanted to say a couple quick things.

Dread has a point when he states that just a regular job for a person without much of an education has no way of sustaining a family. It just isn't enough money. This type of scenario very well has the ability to cause a pressure cooker effect with people. Keep in mind, all I know about this is what I read in this thread, but judging from the comments.... I don't this this is the scenario of what is going on in England with these particular riots. The type of scenario I described can be related more to the G20 summit in Toronto last year. Those were a bunch of peaceful protesters being targeted by the police b/c of a few anarchistic groups that ruined it for everyone. Anyway, that is besides the point.....

This type of pressure cooking is going on on a global scale. Violence is not the answer though. Joel has a very good point too in stating that a violent revolution will not accomplish anything but more violence. I think people need to start to come to grips with the fact that our socio economic system just is not working anymore.... when countries are on the verge of default, there is a problem. There is more debt in the world than there is money.... how can the world be in debt to itself????!!!! It is absolutely ridiculous. The world needs to get away from oil as the driving force of the economy and move towards a system based on resource management, instead of pointless waste.

One last thing concerning property rights.... I don't agree with them. It was a concept invented ages ago as a way to gain power and control. This is a really deep topic so I am not going to go into detail. As far as the farmer scenario described above, here is my take on it. Now this will only work in a world without money, but if the farmers sent their crops to distribution centers, much like a supermarket, and the food was available for free, then there would be no need to steal. What is the incentive for the farmer to farm? He is provided with all the same necessities of life as everyone else. Food, electricity, a place to stay, and any products available out there. This type of thing starts to work better as jobs are automated though. Eventually, farms will be able to be maintained without a farmer. As the world becomes more and more automated, pointless repetitive jobs will be put by the wayside so man can pursue more important things.

That was my 2 cents....

lestat666 wrote:


One last thing concerning property rights.... I don't agree with them. It was a concept invented ages ago as a way to gain power and control. This is a really deep topic so I am not going to go into detail. As far as the farmer scenario described above, here is my take on it. Now this will only work in a world without money, but if the farmers sent their crops to distribution centers, much like a supermarket, and the food was available for free, then there would be no need to steal. What is the incentive for the farmer to farm? He is provided with all the same necessities of life as everyone else. Food, electricity, a place to stay, and any products available out there. This type of thing starts to work better as jobs are automated though. Eventually, farms will be able to be maintained without a farmer. As the world becomes more and more automated, pointless repetitive jobs will be put by the wayside so man can pursue more important things.

That was my 2 cents....

Interesting point and a fascinating system. But, inevitably as technological demands of society increase, farmers would be deskilled in favour of machinery. Where it would take a dozen men to harvest in 8 hours, one machine may accomplish that in 3. I see where you're coming from and there would no doubt be incentive for a farmer to work and provide for the land, but it would ultimately get to a point where society simply demands more.

But thanks for contributing