I've just finished reading some... controversial and difficult topics (not on this board mind you), and I had a question about the United States' 2nd amendment and it's relevancy to a different topic. I realize I'm walking a very thin line to avoid stepping on people's toes, but I feel like I need to ask it, so I will. One might even say I'm exercising your 1st amendment rights. I will not hold you obligated to answer, and if I offend you I apologize in advance; it is not my intention. My intention is clarification.
WARNING: CONTROVERSIALITY AHEAD. (Though written and asked by a humble and quite innocent soul)
A quote: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
The key points here are the "necessary to the security of a free State" bits. Because you guys and gals get to possess arms. Not because it's WRITTEN, but because it is written it is NECESSARY to ensure you guys have a DECENT government in place to take care of you and you would be able to topple it if it has indeed become corrupt.
Now, my highly flammable question:
What if it is true, all these rumors abound, that the current american government did indeed have something to do with the incidents of september eleventh, 2001?
Would the american people rise up and oust it's current government as it is written it might happen by your Forefathers? It would have been an attack by the government against it's own people. You have a whole amendment dedicated to you having the right to the means to overthrow a corrupt government.
My question is this: Would the american people react to such a heinous act?
I base this question on several well documented facts, such as the WTC 7 building, which collapsed seven hours after the north tower fell, which is still an unsolved case in which it is not publically known WHY it would fall.
FEMA stated in it's report that “Loss of structural integrity was likely a result of weakening caused by fires on the 5th to 7th floors. The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue.”
Allow me to simplify one bit of that quote: "The best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurence" is just one way of saying that the most likely scenario is still - highly unlikely.
All three buildings show clear signs of controlled demolition by high explosives; Sudden and symmetrical flaws, vertical collapse, almost all non-metallic material was pulverized while the buildings were still falling, which in turn created huge clouds of toxic gas, and the speed of decent were close to free-fall. Also well-documented, but none of this has been commented on by the government.
(The writer of this himself sat glued to the television as events unfolded, and reacted to the way the buildings came down. I remember telling my mother "There is no f***in' way that was caused by a planecrash alone.")
If you remember, CNN also broadcasted several reports about car-bombs that day. However they rescinded these statements at a later point, claiming they were false reports.
There have been numerable reports from firefighters and police officers who were there in the aftermath that there were clearly visible traces of high explosives. Also not commented on by the government.
According to the construction plans and blueprints and other specs, the World Trade Center was designed to withstand the force of airplanes even of the size that hit on nine-eleven. They were also designed to withstand even more intense fires. Other similar skyscrapers have been subjected to longer and more intense fires than the ones that occured that day, but none of them have ever collapsed as a result of this.
A lot of what some would consider evidence was removed illegally from Ground Zero, the Pentagon and Shanksville, Pennsylvania, in the days and weeks after nine-eleven, without ever going through the normal process of criminal forensic investigations.
Also the White House have indeed been seen working against any formal inquiries into a lot of these matters.
You can find all this on the internet, because you cannot stop people with willpower and access to such powerful tools of free speech.
I would never ever do anything to dishonour the memories of the ones that were lost that day. But I do hope that the american people will not let the current government dangle them in front of your eyes to avoid that you look deeper into what really happened. Because it is indeed your right to know the truth. And if that truth is that the government has done everything it possibly could to safeguard it's own people, then all is well and good. You can sleep soundly at night.
But if the truth is anything else, remember the second amendment. Remember what made your country great in the first place. And remember what Thomas Jefferson said about the Tree of Liberty.
But don't look away from the Truth just because you might be afraid of what you might find.
(Disclaimer: Fred is a peace-loving young man from Norway who wants to fight injustice and as such needs to get such topics as this off his chest. Fred would like to apologize for any inconvenience and toes stepped on, and sincerely hopes that people will not take this as a jest or joke, and instead recognize his deep sincerity and love of the American Myth, and the american people. Thank you.)
Have I ever mentioned that I love you guys? I really do.
-Fred
WARNING: CONTROVERSIALITY AHEAD. (Though written and asked by a humble and quite innocent soul)
A quote: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
The key points here are the "necessary to the security of a free State" bits. Because you guys and gals get to possess arms. Not because it's WRITTEN, but because it is written it is NECESSARY to ensure you guys have a DECENT government in place to take care of you and you would be able to topple it if it has indeed become corrupt.
Now, my highly flammable question:
What if it is true, all these rumors abound, that the current american government did indeed have something to do with the incidents of september eleventh, 2001?
Would the american people rise up and oust it's current government as it is written it might happen by your Forefathers? It would have been an attack by the government against it's own people. You have a whole amendment dedicated to you having the right to the means to overthrow a corrupt government.
My question is this: Would the american people react to such a heinous act?
I base this question on several well documented facts, such as the WTC 7 building, which collapsed seven hours after the north tower fell, which is still an unsolved case in which it is not publically known WHY it would fall.
FEMA stated in it's report that “Loss of structural integrity was likely a result of weakening caused by fires on the 5th to 7th floors. The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue.”
Allow me to simplify one bit of that quote: "The best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurence" is just one way of saying that the most likely scenario is still - highly unlikely.
All three buildings show clear signs of controlled demolition by high explosives; Sudden and symmetrical flaws, vertical collapse, almost all non-metallic material was pulverized while the buildings were still falling, which in turn created huge clouds of toxic gas, and the speed of decent were close to free-fall. Also well-documented, but none of this has been commented on by the government.
(The writer of this himself sat glued to the television as events unfolded, and reacted to the way the buildings came down. I remember telling my mother "There is no f***in' way that was caused by a planecrash alone.")
If you remember, CNN also broadcasted several reports about car-bombs that day. However they rescinded these statements at a later point, claiming they were false reports.
There have been numerable reports from firefighters and police officers who were there in the aftermath that there were clearly visible traces of high explosives. Also not commented on by the government.
According to the construction plans and blueprints and other specs, the World Trade Center was designed to withstand the force of airplanes even of the size that hit on nine-eleven. They were also designed to withstand even more intense fires. Other similar skyscrapers have been subjected to longer and more intense fires than the ones that occured that day, but none of them have ever collapsed as a result of this.
A lot of what some would consider evidence was removed illegally from Ground Zero, the Pentagon and Shanksville, Pennsylvania, in the days and weeks after nine-eleven, without ever going through the normal process of criminal forensic investigations.
Also the White House have indeed been seen working against any formal inquiries into a lot of these matters.
You can find all this on the internet, because you cannot stop people with willpower and access to such powerful tools of free speech.
I would never ever do anything to dishonour the memories of the ones that were lost that day. But I do hope that the american people will not let the current government dangle them in front of your eyes to avoid that you look deeper into what really happened. Because it is indeed your right to know the truth. And if that truth is that the government has done everything it possibly could to safeguard it's own people, then all is well and good. You can sleep soundly at night.
But if the truth is anything else, remember the second amendment. Remember what made your country great in the first place. And remember what Thomas Jefferson said about the Tree of Liberty.
But don't look away from the Truth just because you might be afraid of what you might find.
(Disclaimer: Fred is a peace-loving young man from Norway who wants to fight injustice and as such needs to get such topics as this off his chest. Fred would like to apologize for any inconvenience and toes stepped on, and sincerely hopes that people will not take this as a jest or joke, and instead recognize his deep sincerity and love of the American Myth, and the american people. Thank you.)
Have I ever mentioned that I love you guys? I really do.
-Fred
Pirates, vampires, zombies, ninjas, ghouls, aliens, goblins, monsters, robots, sorcerers, undead, werewolves, demons, mutated dinosaur-cyborgs and those pesky phone salesmen! The shotgun is a one-size-fits-all solution!
Sotaria,
Well said. No...*Very* well-said.
--
Fred,
The notion of armed citizens for keeping a corrupt government at bay is more along the lines of resistance rather than revolution. These are very different things.
Also, the conclusions presented by the conspiracy websites do not follow logically from their premises. First of all, the alleged presence of explosives does not automatically implicate the government. That's like saying the presence of crop circles implies aliens in flying saucers. There are many other possibilities. Secondly, you have to be careful not to confuse consistency with proof. For instance, one could *probably* assemble a number of indisputable facts, while selectively disregarding whatever doesn't fit and build a seemingly good case that the Norwegians did it. Of course, they didn't. But it is fairly easy to build a case for any pre-determined conclusion if one simply presents only the facts that support it and is silent about those that don't.
Well said. No...*Very* well-said.
--
Fred,
The notion of armed citizens for keeping a corrupt government at bay is more along the lines of resistance rather than revolution. These are very different things.
Also, the conclusions presented by the conspiracy websites do not follow logically from their premises. First of all, the alleged presence of explosives does not automatically implicate the government. That's like saying the presence of crop circles implies aliens in flying saucers. There are many other possibilities. Secondly, you have to be careful not to confuse consistency with proof. For instance, one could *probably* assemble a number of indisputable facts, while selectively disregarding whatever doesn't fit and build a seemingly good case that the Norwegians did it. Of course, they didn't. But it is fairly easy to build a case for any pre-determined conclusion if one simply presents only the facts that support it and is silent about those that don't.
I know I've already overstepped, and all I want is to have said my piece on the subject. There are far too many variables in this equation to solve it in such short time.
Therefore all I wanted was to get the notion across that IF... y'know... *IF*...
...that the american people would not sit idly by and watch.
I am not american. But my nation is a part of the United States' history and heritage.
I have taken a standpoint. And from where I stand, my perspective is this: We're all stuck on the same lump of rock floating through space. Once you keep that firmly in your mind, you would see how I can... heh... find the stones to open my mouth and touch such topics. I believe that some times, it is necessary to look the devil in the eye. I'm just the sort that would take aim and spit in it as well.
I believe in Truth. I believe in what's Right. But moreover, I believe in telling the Truth. And doing what's Right. Always.
I do not wish to impose a lengthy debate on you. It is not what this forum is here for. I thank you for letting me vent the subject, I am... prone to outbursts every once in a while.
I suspect that when I'm JTOG's age, I will be a grumpy ol' man who waves his cane at the world and shouts out all the wrongs he sees. So I'm a cynical goodie-two-shoes. Hopefully there's a place for me in the world as well.
(Did you notice how I started every paragraph with 'I'? Wow. Self-centeredness. Won't hear me speak like this often)
I've only two things to add. Sotaria; I did not link to any websites, nor mention any. Therefore you are wrong when you say "your websites." Other than that I concur with many things you say. There is logic in your words.
And Dr Paul, we agree on one thing for certain: Not all the cards are on the table. (Something I always find disturbing)
Other than that, thank you for reassuring me. Thank you lots.
-Fred
Therefore all I wanted was to get the notion across that IF... y'know... *IF*...
...that the american people would not sit idly by and watch.
I am not american. But my nation is a part of the United States' history and heritage.
I have taken a standpoint. And from where I stand, my perspective is this: We're all stuck on the same lump of rock floating through space. Once you keep that firmly in your mind, you would see how I can... heh... find the stones to open my mouth and touch such topics. I believe that some times, it is necessary to look the devil in the eye. I'm just the sort that would take aim and spit in it as well.
I believe in Truth. I believe in what's Right. But moreover, I believe in telling the Truth. And doing what's Right. Always.
I do not wish to impose a lengthy debate on you. It is not what this forum is here for. I thank you for letting me vent the subject, I am... prone to outbursts every once in a while.
I suspect that when I'm JTOG's age, I will be a grumpy ol' man who waves his cane at the world and shouts out all the wrongs he sees. So I'm a cynical goodie-two-shoes. Hopefully there's a place for me in the world as well.
(Did you notice how I started every paragraph with 'I'? Wow. Self-centeredness. Won't hear me speak like this often)
I've only two things to add. Sotaria; I did not link to any websites, nor mention any. Therefore you are wrong when you say "your websites." Other than that I concur with many things you say. There is logic in your words.
And Dr Paul, we agree on one thing for certain: Not all the cards are on the table. (Something I always find disturbing)
Other than that, thank you for reassuring me. Thank you lots.
-Fred
Pirates, vampires, zombies, ninjas, ghouls, aliens, goblins, monsters, robots, sorcerers, undead, werewolves, demons, mutated dinosaur-cyborgs and those pesky phone salesmen! The shotgun is a one-size-fits-all solution!
Very interesting thread. I'm one of those who disagrees with Bush on a million different issues, but cannot for the life of me imagine that he as a mustache-twirling villain, or he as the stupid figurehead with a mustache-twirling villain behind him, would find the necessary motive or malice to perpetrate such a crime. And what of its results? If a conspiracy, it was paradoxically both brilliant in execution (being hatched in a matter of months after Bush came to office) and an awful one:
1) What profit has been turned for any in league with the Bush administration that an oil company collusion, a few protective tariffs, or other such mercantalistic intrusions into free enterprise could not have effected? This is Bush's real turf! Government interventionism into free trade has been the single most instrumental force in the dismantling of our country for decades now, and it's been successfully done by both Republicans and Democrats.
2) What fascist power has been gained by the Conspirators that will not be quickly lost by the coming congressional elections (in which Democrats will probably take back at least one of the houses) and the next presidential election (in which no electable conservative has arisen)?
I wonder sometimes if the Founding Fathers wouldn't already have taken arms against the government as their beloved republic has decomposed into democracy, starting with multiple catastrophic blows to the original vision of our government that fell before the nineteenth century was half-way over. It's a completely different government now, and it's happened exactly the way the Founders predicted. But no, we have lost the vision of freedom. We've gotten settled in security. We love our government too much. We won't be revising it with arms any time soon.
1) What profit has been turned for any in league with the Bush administration that an oil company collusion, a few protective tariffs, or other such mercantalistic intrusions into free enterprise could not have effected? This is Bush's real turf! Government interventionism into free trade has been the single most instrumental force in the dismantling of our country for decades now, and it's been successfully done by both Republicans and Democrats.
2) What fascist power has been gained by the Conspirators that will not be quickly lost by the coming congressional elections (in which Democrats will probably take back at least one of the houses) and the next presidential election (in which no electable conservative has arisen)?
I wonder sometimes if the Founding Fathers wouldn't already have taken arms against the government as their beloved republic has decomposed into democracy, starting with multiple catastrophic blows to the original vision of our government that fell before the nineteenth century was half-way over. It's a completely different government now, and it's happened exactly the way the Founders predicted. But no, we have lost the vision of freedom. We've gotten settled in security. We love our government too much. We won't be revising it with arms any time soon.
~ Member: Tex Murphy's Mutant League, Crazy 888's Chapter~
*Revitalizing Old San Francisco's Chandler Avenue District With Style*
(also known as Steve Douglas, but usually by people less awesome than UTMers)
*Revitalizing Old San Francisco's Chandler Avenue District With Style*
(also known as Steve Douglas, but usually by people less awesome than UTMers)
I don't want to debate the pros and cons of GWB's administration, because politics today is too polarizing. There is so much emotion, propaganda, spin, misinformation, disinformation, self-righteousness and outright hatred in politics today that it renders honest, civil discussions almost impossible.
However, the root of Fred's question, although political, is fundamentally non-partisian. The question is, basically, when do we take up arms?
I think Fred's concept of taking up arms is pretty far off. By this I mean, that he keeps expecting us to do by force what we can easily do by legal means. Don't like the president? Don't agree with him? Don't vote for him. We don't need a revolution for that.
Taking up arms is for when the government becomes oppressive. But be aware that taking up arms also means putting one's life on the line. So the bar should fairly high for that. This isn't the Wild West.
Think about it. You're suggesting we murder our president or go to war with our government because some people didn't get their way on forign policy. Is that what you regard as a Civilized solution? Kil whoever disagrees with you? No. We are not quite that crazy here in the good ol' USA. We have other ways to deal with that.
However, the root of Fred's question, although political, is fundamentally non-partisian. The question is, basically, when do we take up arms?
I think Fred's concept of taking up arms is pretty far off. By this I mean, that he keeps expecting us to do by force what we can easily do by legal means. Don't like the president? Don't agree with him? Don't vote for him. We don't need a revolution for that.
Taking up arms is for when the government becomes oppressive. But be aware that taking up arms also means putting one's life on the line. So the bar should fairly high for that. This isn't the Wild West.
Think about it. You're suggesting we murder our president or go to war with our government because some people didn't get their way on forign policy. Is that what you regard as a Civilized solution? Kil whoever disagrees with you? No. We are not quite that crazy here in the good ol' USA. We have other ways to deal with that.
Before I begin ... I must say that I - just like my dear Scandinavian fellow, Fred - have no intention of making a negative impact with this topic as we are peace-loving guys who in fact are allies of the US, so please bare with me if I write something that might get out of line. 
Anyway, I'm not going to be a person who backs up the whole conspiracy theory of 9/11 as I really can't be entitled to say anything about anything I don't know much about. I don't live in the US so I don't know much about your government, your way of life, how buildings are structured and so on and so forth. I could only watch 5 years ago when the planes crashed in the WTC and the Pentagon and be shocked at what I saw. I'm not saying that it might have been "your own" that did it in order to be able to start the way on Iraq (which is one of the conspiracy theories) ... I DO in fact believe that it was terrorists that planned all this and executed it to perfection.
However, I have seen a few documentaries about the attack and some things do stand out as odd which I THINK the US Government might have left out afterwards. But then again I don't know if these so-called documentaries have altered the images or "proof" in order win over a lot of doubting people. Anyway - what I saw was an image of the Pentagon after the attack where they measured the size of the hole the plane should have made - and the size of the hole was MUCH smaller than the size of the plane which struck me as odd. Also - how can a plane even be allowed in the air-space around the Pentagon seeing as how only the US Military are allowed there. The area around the Pentagon is also very populated as there are tons of roads with a probability of hundreds of witnesses. Nothing is heard from any of these. The security cameras at the Pentagon also recorded the crash, but they never saw a plane crash into the Pentagon. I would believe that in order for the US Government to win over the American people they would at least have published the footage from the security cameras to ensure them that a plane DID in fact crash into the Pentagon - but they never did. The documentary I saw hinted at a possible missile strike seeing as it was much smaller, more silent, faster and couldn't necessarily attract a lot of eye witnesses - at least until after it struck.
Anyway ... the above was a little bit of that documentary (call it a conspiracy theory or not) and it contained a lot more information that I at first really believed because they did a tremendous job describing things in detail. They also had so much "evidence" that it was inevitable for many to disregard their information.
I'm aware of the fact that this documentary (and probably a whole lot more) is considered a conspiracy theory which is also why I'm very hesitant to really believe everything it says ... I just thought I'd bring up a bit of it ... and as I said before - I'm very sorry if I stepped on anyone's feet ... I think I'll just lie down and accept any kicks and punches now - if you feel like it of course
God bless America!
/// NetRoam
Anyway, I'm not going to be a person who backs up the whole conspiracy theory of 9/11 as I really can't be entitled to say anything about anything I don't know much about. I don't live in the US so I don't know much about your government, your way of life, how buildings are structured and so on and so forth. I could only watch 5 years ago when the planes crashed in the WTC and the Pentagon and be shocked at what I saw. I'm not saying that it might have been "your own" that did it in order to be able to start the way on Iraq (which is one of the conspiracy theories) ... I DO in fact believe that it was terrorists that planned all this and executed it to perfection.
However, I have seen a few documentaries about the attack and some things do stand out as odd which I THINK the US Government might have left out afterwards. But then again I don't know if these so-called documentaries have altered the images or "proof" in order win over a lot of doubting people. Anyway - what I saw was an image of the Pentagon after the attack where they measured the size of the hole the plane should have made - and the size of the hole was MUCH smaller than the size of the plane which struck me as odd. Also - how can a plane even be allowed in the air-space around the Pentagon seeing as how only the US Military are allowed there. The area around the Pentagon is also very populated as there are tons of roads with a probability of hundreds of witnesses. Nothing is heard from any of these. The security cameras at the Pentagon also recorded the crash, but they never saw a plane crash into the Pentagon. I would believe that in order for the US Government to win over the American people they would at least have published the footage from the security cameras to ensure them that a plane DID in fact crash into the Pentagon - but they never did. The documentary I saw hinted at a possible missile strike seeing as it was much smaller, more silent, faster and couldn't necessarily attract a lot of eye witnesses - at least until after it struck.
Anyway ... the above was a little bit of that documentary (call it a conspiracy theory or not) and it contained a lot more information that I at first really believed because they did a tremendous job describing things in detail. They also had so much "evidence" that it was inevitable for many to disregard their information.
I'm aware of the fact that this documentary (and probably a whole lot more) is considered a conspiracy theory which is also why I'm very hesitant to really believe everything it says ... I just thought I'd bring up a bit of it ... and as I said before - I'm very sorry if I stepped on anyone's feet ... I think I'll just lie down and accept any kicks and punches now - if you feel like it of course
God bless America!
/// NetRoam
.
There is no need to suppose a US Govt conspiracy to explain the events of 9/11. In fact, it is quite an amazingly far-fetched idea. That would mean at least one of two things: 1) By an amazing coincidence, the U.S. just happened to have explosives all rigged and ready to explode in the exact same building that the terrorists decided to attack. Or, 2) The terroists were working *with* the U.S. govt to help Bush get the people's support he needed to go to war against the terrorists or Iraq. But conspiracy theories abound.
When analyzing the actions (or lack thereof) for events related to 9/11, you *must* keep in mind that something like this never happened before. I'm sure you know how easy it is, after the fact, to say 'We should have done this,' or 'Why did we do that?' Keep in mind what our previous experience with highjackings was, the fact that these planes were filled with civilians and that nobody knew the planes would be used as missles.
Jets were in fact scrambled to intercept the planes. But the planes couldn't be shot down without a direct order from the President. What president is going to give the order to shoot down civilian aircraft without the foreknowledge of the highjacker's intent? The order was eventually given when the intent was clear. But it was too late.
If a plane didn't crash into the Pentagon, where did it (and all the people on that flight) go? If it didn't crash it must have landed secretly somewhere. Where is it and where are all the passengers who's families believe them to be dead? Or, if it crashed somewhere else, again, where is it? A commercial airline crash is not something easily hidden. Debris is typically scattered over miles. If it crashed into the Pentagon *and* if explosive charges or missiles were sent-off by govt conspirators, the hole would have been bigger, not smaller. The conspiracy just doesn't add up here.
In order to answer the question about the Pentagon cameras, one would need to know the exact placement of all cameras, their fields of view, field cycles, trajectory of the aircraft and point and instant of impact in order to determine whether it was reasonable or not to 'see' the plane. Without that information, the absence of imaging means nothing.
On the one hand, we have terrorists organizations that have vowed to destroy the U.S. and Western Civilization, who claim responsibility for 9/11 attacks and who have made numerous other attacks against both the U.S. and other Western countries. The highjackers of the planes have been identified and are known to be members of these terrorist organizations and the terrorists don't deny this.
On the other hand, maybe Bush is such a clever and charismatic guy, that he was actually able to convince the terrorist organizations to work with him to bring about 9/11 so that he (Bush) would have the excuse he needed to then turn around and go to war against the terrorists and bomb Iraq.
You decide.
When analyzing the actions (or lack thereof) for events related to 9/11, you *must* keep in mind that something like this never happened before. I'm sure you know how easy it is, after the fact, to say 'We should have done this,' or 'Why did we do that?' Keep in mind what our previous experience with highjackings was, the fact that these planes were filled with civilians and that nobody knew the planes would be used as missles.
Jets were in fact scrambled to intercept the planes. But the planes couldn't be shot down without a direct order from the President. What president is going to give the order to shoot down civilian aircraft without the foreknowledge of the highjacker's intent? The order was eventually given when the intent was clear. But it was too late.
If a plane didn't crash into the Pentagon, where did it (and all the people on that flight) go? If it didn't crash it must have landed secretly somewhere. Where is it and where are all the passengers who's families believe them to be dead? Or, if it crashed somewhere else, again, where is it? A commercial airline crash is not something easily hidden. Debris is typically scattered over miles. If it crashed into the Pentagon *and* if explosive charges or missiles were sent-off by govt conspirators, the hole would have been bigger, not smaller. The conspiracy just doesn't add up here.
In order to answer the question about the Pentagon cameras, one would need to know the exact placement of all cameras, their fields of view, field cycles, trajectory of the aircraft and point and instant of impact in order to determine whether it was reasonable or not to 'see' the plane. Without that information, the absence of imaging means nothing.
On the one hand, we have terrorists organizations that have vowed to destroy the U.S. and Western Civilization, who claim responsibility for 9/11 attacks and who have made numerous other attacks against both the U.S. and other Western countries. The highjackers of the planes have been identified and are known to be members of these terrorist organizations and the terrorists don't deny this.
On the other hand, maybe Bush is such a clever and charismatic guy, that he was actually able to convince the terrorist organizations to work with him to bring about 9/11 so that he (Bush) would have the excuse he needed to then turn around and go to war against the terrorists and bomb Iraq.
You decide.
If the government was responsible for it, I dont know what I would do. I imagine there would be either two things that would take place.
The government officials involved would try to justify their actions. Simple enough for them to do, especially if they had originally thought that they had a reason, it would just be a matter for them to convince the rest of us.
This might hold off any revolts, but many people in this country and others would definatly not be able to trust anything that was being said. Maybe economic cut off from other countries. Which would mean that the United States would be over as a world power.
Of course then, China being the badass that it is would side with us anyway. Justifying the loss of a few in their minds is worth it too so they join up with us and we make some sort of agreement of free trade between and only with our two countries. This would make the biggest world power, unlimited supplies of money, and an unstoppable army.
Now that the United States has played god and gotten away with it, they grow drunk on what power they think they have. The slightest nudge from another country will set us off. Then, the end...
Yeah, thats all bull**** but I'm bored.
The government officials involved would try to justify their actions. Simple enough for them to do, especially if they had originally thought that they had a reason, it would just be a matter for them to convince the rest of us.
This might hold off any revolts, but many people in this country and others would definatly not be able to trust anything that was being said. Maybe economic cut off from other countries. Which would mean that the United States would be over as a world power.
Of course then, China being the badass that it is would side with us anyway. Justifying the loss of a few in their minds is worth it too so they join up with us and we make some sort of agreement of free trade between and only with our two countries. This would make the biggest world power, unlimited supplies of money, and an unstoppable army.
Now that the United States has played god and gotten away with it, they grow drunk on what power they think they have. The slightest nudge from another country will set us off. Then, the end...
Yeah, thats all bull**** but I'm bored.
Travis Jacobs
"You might not sound so idiotic if there were at least something excitable in my post to begin with..." --Baf
"You might not sound so idiotic if there were at least something excitable in my post to begin with..." --Baf
You wanna know what I think? I think the world needs Bill Hicks. That's what I think.
-Fred
-Fred
Pirates, vampires, zombies, ninjas, ghouls, aliens, goblins, monsters, robots, sorcerers, undead, werewolves, demons, mutated dinosaur-cyborgs and those pesky phone salesmen! The shotgun is a one-size-fits-all solution!
Here's my two cents...
1. Conspiracy? First you'd have to ask who are the conspirators and how they gained from the destruction of said buildings. Nobody plans out such an overly large conspiracy for nothing. While I'm sure it's easy to point fingers at Bush, it might be more logical to look at a lower position, like some people in the defense department. I mean, look at Cheney talk. He starts talking and you know he's up to something. Like...shooting people, or overcooking the Christmas pie. Evil things like that.
2. Americans are the most obese people in the world. They also love American Idol. I can't imagine an army of fat people gathering their guns (which they all need licenses for) and then charging the capital.
3. I have no desire to outlaw guns. However, I believe people should pass a course first. I mean, you need to pass a drivers test to drive a car. And even though the drivers test is kind of joke, it's still a lot better than just handing people the keys and saying, Good luck Johnny! A license to safely handle firearms sounds reasonable.
4. Sotaria, nobody called Bush a dictator yet, so it seem unnecessary to defend him if someone has.
1. Conspiracy? First you'd have to ask who are the conspirators and how they gained from the destruction of said buildings. Nobody plans out such an overly large conspiracy for nothing. While I'm sure it's easy to point fingers at Bush, it might be more logical to look at a lower position, like some people in the defense department. I mean, look at Cheney talk. He starts talking and you know he's up to something. Like...shooting people, or overcooking the Christmas pie. Evil things like that.
2. Americans are the most obese people in the world. They also love American Idol. I can't imagine an army of fat people gathering their guns (which they all need licenses for) and then charging the capital.
3. I have no desire to outlaw guns. However, I believe people should pass a course first. I mean, you need to pass a drivers test to drive a car. And even though the drivers test is kind of joke, it's still a lot better than just handing people the keys and saying, Good luck Johnny! A license to safely handle firearms sounds reasonable.
4. Sotaria, nobody called Bush a dictator yet, so it seem unnecessary to defend him if someone has.
My blog:
http://nvracar.wordpress.com/
http://nvracar.wordpress.com/
[quote="Vracar"]
2. Americans are the most obese people in the world. They also love American Idol. I can't imagine an army of fat people gathering their guns (which they all need licenses for) and then charging the capital.
quote]
I am one American that dislikes American Idol. I also do not have a gun and I dont want to outlaw them either.
2. Americans are the most obese people in the world. They also love American Idol. I can't imagine an army of fat people gathering their guns (which they all need licenses for) and then charging the capital.
quote]
I am one American that dislikes American Idol. I also do not have a gun and I dont want to outlaw them either.
"The futures uncertain and the end is always near." Jim Morrison
"What the duece?" Stewie Griffin
"No one gets me, baby. I'm the wind" Tom Servo.
"What the duece?" Stewie Griffin
"No one gets me, baby. I'm the wind" Tom Servo.
