Unofficial Tex Murphy

lotus_j wrote:Isn't this the first or second Olympics with this age limit?

I don't know which one it is, but I know that one of the USA girls won a gold at 14, it even says so in one of the Video links I posted above... So I'm not sure when they implemented the Age Restriction...

lotus_j wrote:The facial "expert," is actually a professor of anthropology from some where (at least the one expert i saw on tv about it was) and writes books that were turned into a TV series. It doesn't matter what race there are certain facial features that are prominent on a 16 year old girl. Generally an anthropoligist can tell the age of someone just by looking at their bones.

That's what I was saying earlier... I wasn't sure of the field of the Experts, I just know that they said at certain ages no matter the race the face begins to Stretch {so to speak} and things begin to be more spaced out... Has to do mostly with Puberty I think... That's when most of the changes happen...

lotus_j wrote:Also it's just a medal. Is it really worth it?

LMAO, I refer you to Sweden for that answer... To that one Wrestler it sure mattered... He was Pissed... So they said to hell with him and just took the medal from him, period...

Bafitis wrote: The Expert didn't say it, but in one of those Videos someone mentioned something about the Chinese girls still having Baby-Teeth... Now I'm pretty sure that by 12, no matter your origin, you should have all your permanent teeth... Though you would need to bring in a Dentist to verify this information... I'm pretty sure it was just a Broadcaster that said something about the Baby Teeth...

Interesting you said that... I still had most of my baby teeth when I was 18 years old. I had a rare condition where all my baby teeth had developed roots, which was not meant to happen, so I had to get 16 extractions otherwise I would've had 2 sets of teeth (they would've never grown out)... at one stage I had 2 rows of teeth on my bottom row.

That's just one example of how, despite socially accepted perceptions, things are not always as they seem.

Also keep in mind that its not uncommon in Asian children to have underdeveloped features. Despite being fairly developed in Beijing, they are still a 2nd world country.

-Cub. =o)

Cubase wrote: Also keep in mind that its not uncommon in Asian children to have underdeveloped features. Despite being fairly developed in Beijing, they are still a 2nd world country.

-Cub. =o)

Ok they talked about it AGAIN on MS-NBC. The expert was referred to as "one of the leading forensic anthropologists in the world." I'm pretty sure a leading forensic anthropologist has a good idea of what features an Asian child would have and when. They kept refering to her as a facial expert too, but that is just bad media representation.

It's not like this "conspiracy," exists just because they look young. The problem is two of them were listed in previous events as being a different (and younger) age. In addition as supplemental evidence China's own news papers listed their ages the same as the previous events. China's defense is "no one asked us how old they were, they just guessed." SURE.

All they use to prove age is a passport. As I mentioned it's real easy to fake that passport when the people who would be cheating are your country. Also I wouldn't be shocked at all to find out if the American Gymnist who finished with a Silver in All-Arounds was only 14 and that her Birth Certificate and Passport were fraudulant. She looks like a middle schooler and not like a high schooler.

I belive the anthropologist also said it would be very easy to scientifically verify their age within months of actual age. I think she was implying DNA or something could prove age.

I remember when someone used a 15 year old boy or something in Little League play and faked his paperwork. Faked paperwork isn't too hard to come up with.

Again to me it's pointless. We're arguing about a sport that "scores," based on entirely opinion and weird rules. The team based scores seemed to be extremely Pro-China in scoring. While in individual all arounds it appeared like they just did it fair to make up for the judging in the team rounds. Then in individual event competition it appeared they reverted back to being Pro-China (like they got pressure after having the audacity to suggest their best gymnist was only Bronze Medal worthy).

In fact I bet a lot of people are being pressured to lean China's way. I've been to China and I definitely wouldn't want to piss them off. Also it's not a 2nd world country. It's 3rd world. I was in Beijing months ago and they were working hard to try and get people to quit going to the bathroom in the streets before the Olympics. I'm also referring to the most disgusting version of seeing someone go to the bathroom in the street too. I witnessed it in multiple places. It was disgusting.

The country is a huge example of haves and have nots. It's scary.

I've pretty much figured the age limit thingy was about protecting the youth but it's pretty irrelevant if you ask me. The limit for the Olympics will not in anyway change the age they actually start to train, which is usually around 4, and not just in China but pretty much anywhere, for any sport. If anyone is serious and aiming for a major league today you HAVE to start around 4 or 5 and grasp the ins and outs of the game as a part of your growing process.

As for the potential emotional stress, I'm not entirely sure there's a big difference for a 12 year old between a local competition and the Olympics. Watching the kids sing at the opening ceremony with big bright smiles makes me think none of them grasped the importance of the event (or the made-up importance in our adult mind anyway), and surely neither do the athletes out on their first run. In fact, I'm inclined to think someone going to the Olympics at 14 will be much better prepared and casual about it when they hit their second Olympics at 18 than someone who goes for the first time at 18 and fully grasps the importance of their performance and suffers the full force of grown-ups' stress.

As far as manipulation is concerned, any sport or event relying on the whim of judges and the fad of the moment will be at the mercy of pressure, corruption and moving currents. Can't do much about it except enjoy the show for what it is, which is an amazing display of skills by gifted individuals in their fields. I guess it's the equivalent of the Nobel prize, which is as much subject to corruption and fads but still interesting to keep up on.

Cubase wrote:Interesting you said that... I still had most of my baby teeth when I was 18 years old. I had a rare condition where all my baby teeth had developed roots, which was not meant to happen, so I had to get 16 extractions otherwise I would've had 2 sets of teeth (they would've never grown out)... at one stage I had 2 rows of teeth on my bottom row.

Wow, I can't imagine that was a comfortable experience for you Cub... My sympathy to your past pain... 2 rows of Teeth you say??? You're part shark, aren't you??? lol Sorry Cub, just bustin your, well we'll keep it clean on the boards just fill in your own colorful metaphor...

lotus_j wrote:Again to me it's pointless. We're arguing

We're not arguing, this is a well rounded discussion... The problem is that the Olympic Officials won't be doing an investigation, so unfortunately we won't be able to eventually come to a conclusion... It will remain Speculation on our part, even with an Expert on the News saying what she is saying, it will still be Speculation without a final conclusion from Officials...

lotus_j wrote:In fact I bet a lot of people are being pressured to lean China's way. I've been to China and I definitely wouldn't want to piss them off. Also it's not a 2nd world country. It's 3rd world. I was in Beijing months ago and they were working hard to try and get people to quit going to the bathroom in the streets before the Olympics. I'm also referring to the most disgusting version of seeing someone go to the bathroom in the street too. I witnessed it in multiple places. It was disgusting.

France had places like that too, I remember seeing people just up and Squat where ever they pleased... It was nasty... I don't even like walking in on my wife while she's on the toilet and I've been with her for 12 years, let alone watching strangers do it...

You sure they are still classified as a 3rd world country???
I know they were considered 3rd world after the Cold War, but are they still???
I know they do things that disgust us and they still use Lead Paint, but I figured they had been redefined by now... After all they've made many advances in a lot of things... They've made a lot growth and have much more potential...
You do have to love their Acupuncture though, feels so good, just like they Acupressure Massages...

You do have to admit, they have the Best looking Bears in the world... I even put Pandas above Polar Bears and Polar Bears are some good looking creatures...
There are the Koala Bears as well, they are some cute animals, but I have to stick with the Pandas being the best...

Bafitis wrote: We're not arguing, this is a well rounded discussion... The problem is that the Olympic Officials won't be doing an investigation, so unfortunately we won't be able to eventually come to a conclusion... It will remain Speculation on our part, even with an Expert on the News saying what she is saying, it will still be Speculation without a final conclusion from Officials...

Any disagreement is technically an arguement. He is suggesting we're jumping to conclusions. I think the "expert," is just supplementle evidence. The real evidence to me is that both girls in question were listed OFFICIALLY as a different age for other competitions. In addition to that their own newspapers reported their ages until recently as the other ages. China's defense that no one ever "asked," their age is absurd. It's a "HAHAHA! Silly Lao Wei (ok my spelling might be off there) you can prove nothing!"

Also again they haven't said they won't investigate they've said they won't investigate NOW. That is a big difference. It isn't safe for them to investigate it now.

bafitis wrote: You sure they are still classified as a 3rd world country???
I know they were considered 3rd world after the Cold War, but are they still???
I know they do things that disgust us and they still use Lead Paint, but I figured they had been redefined by now... After all they've made many advances in a lot of things... They've made a lot growth and have much more potential...
You do have to love their Acupuncture though, feels so good, just like they Acupressure Massages...

You do have to admit, they have the Best looking Bears in the world... I even put Pandas above Polar Bears and Polar Bears are some good looking creatures...
There are the Koala Bears as well, they are some cute animals, but I have to stick with the Pandas being the best...

Yeah I'm pretty sure they're still 3rd world. The majority of the Chinese population is beyond poor. It's like Mexico. Sure there are sections that are nice but the overall country is vastly under developed.

Also has anyone ever decided "officially," if the Panda Bear is even a Bear yet? Last I knew it was still argued they were in the Racoon family.

Frank wrote: As far as manipulation is concerned, any sport or event relying on the whim of judges and the fad of the moment will be at the mercy of pressure, corruption and moving currents. Can't do much about it except enjoy the show for what it is, which is an amazing display of skills by gifted individuals in their fields. I guess it's the equivalent of the Nobel prize, which is as much subject to corruption and fads but still interesting to keep up on.

Right I just witnessed it again in paired synchronized swimming... the Chinese team got absurd scores. What was amusing was the China judge gave them .2 higher a score than anyone else (thank god it gets removed) still it was obvious the performance wasn't really that great but not bad either.

I always argue that any time a sport relies on the opinion of judges the end result is usually questionable. Heck racing is about the only real sport because everything else has officials of some kind that can manipulate the event.

lotus_j wrote:

Yeah I'm pretty sure they're still 3rd world. The majority of the Chinese population is beyond poor. It's like Mexico. Sure there are sections that are nice but the overall country is vastly under developed.

I personally don think it can no longer be considered 3rd world (despite the fact that it might've still considered itself third world after the cold war)... but not after the Olympics. Social and economic developments have pushed China forward significantly in the last 10 years, and it is not just about what the street living conditions are like. China is currently under a lot of global pressure to perform, and show how developed they are and hence no longer considers itself 3rd world.

But lets say for arguments sake it still is (and I agree, many of it is grossly underdeveloped), it only fortifies my point about there being a issue with physical development in children.

And secondly Lotus, with all do respect you know nothing about how events are judged (and neither do I) so think about that when you consider trying to determine how such performances are judged.

Baf, I appreciate your approach to this discussion... however Lotus, please keep in mind that I am not arguing to be a pain in the ass; I am merely establishing the fact that nobody on this board (and no matter how many so called "experts" say so on the news, which just sounds as biased to me) has the real expertise to make the judgments you are making so why not save yourself the embarrassment. China may very well deserve their medals, just as much as the USA deserves to still be at the top of the medal tally totals... But it all boils down to one thing: we just don't know, and any speculation just sounds like sour grapes.

Lastly, cheating has existed in sport and the Olympics for many many years is many other countries as well, so pointing the finger at China now just because they are leading the gold medal tally for a change is a bit immature. It's not uncommon considering they have the most participants in this years games.

End of discussion.

-Cub. =o)

Just you wait until the WINTER olympics. Then Norway will shine again! Oh yes. Like the days of the yester-years.

-Fred

PS - Snow for sale. Cheap snow. Call Honest Fred at 1-800-SNO-CONE at any time between september and april.

One thing I love about the Olympics this year is the high quality web coverage. Best thing about it. NO JIBBA JABBER! The commentary was in text at the bottom. I'm enjoying just watching the event 'really' live, (I'm on West Coast feed) no interuptions, no chatter or commercials.

BTW, I think the little Chinese Female weightilfter is pretty amazing. She's such a teeny thing, and fun to watch.

Cubase wrote:
But lets say for arguments sake it still is (and I agree, many of it is grossly underdeveloped), it only fortifies my point about there being a issue with physical development in children.

Right and a world leading forensic anthropoligist will have direct knowledge of that. She was even asked that question in the last interview. She said she was specifically talking about China and the region from which the girl came from. The girls in question don't look 12 to me they look 10. To the expert they look the age they are reported to have been just 1 year ago.

Technically China wasn't listed as a Third World country. In fact "Communist," countries weren't listed as Third World. However at some point during the 70s China themselves started labeling themselves as Third World. They are now claiming they are developing into a 1st world country.

The term was used to show "development," of a country and China's vast majority of population are under developed, illiterate, etc. Yes they have made some huge strides in areas and I'll agree they are on the verge of change. However the country is still grossly under developed.

And secondly Lotus, with all do respect you know nothing about how events are judged (and neither do I) so think about that when you consider trying to determine how such performances are judged.

I don't? How do you know what I know? For all you know my Aunt is over in Beijing right now judging one of the events as the American judge. Don't make an assumption about what I know and don't know.

Baf, I appreciate your approach to this discussion... however Lotus, please keep in mind that I am not arguing to be a pain in the ass; I am merely establishing the fact that nobody on this board (and no matter how many so called "experts" say so on the news, which just sounds as biased to me) has the real expertise to make the judgments you are making so why not save yourself the embarrassment. China may very well deserve their medals, just as much as the USA deserves to still be at the top of the medal tally totals... But it all boils down to one thing: we just don't know, and any speculation just sounds like sour grapes.

See I'm not going on the experts. I'm going on the information that the girls OFFICIALLY were listed as being younger for another tournament. Combine that information with newspapers listing their age as younger (Chinese papers which are controlled by the government). Then combine that with "experts," claiming the girls don't have the physical signs of being 16. The experts are to me the least important part of the equation.

We KNOW the girls are under 16. The evidence is there. The problem is that the officials claim they only care what the passport says.

Also it is far from sour grapes. I don't care about the medal or the USA coming in second. I think the Olympics are for the most part a joke. In fact I mentioned my speculation that the American team cheated too. That however IS speculation and there is no proof in existence. Unlike the Chinese girls who were OFFICIALLY listed as being younger in other events and in newspaper articles.

Lastly, cheating has existed in sport and the Olympics for many many years is many other countries as well, so pointing the finger at China now just because they are leading the gold medal tally for a change is a bit immature. It's not uncommon considering they have the most participants in this years games.

You assume I care about such petty things as medals or medal counts. I'm interested in this story because of how amusing it is. It is OBVIOUS they are cheating. The evidence is clearly there in more ways than one. The girls were listed as being younger in officially sanctioned events in previous years and in newspaper reports (again the newspapers are run by the government). They magically aged when the age requirement was put in place for this Olympics. Everyone knows they are lying. China is proudly aware of the fact that everyone knows they are lying. That is what makes the story interesting. The fact that cheating is going on (only according to rules age discrimination to me is lousy) and it is being rubbed in everyone's faces is what makes it interesting.

Any country could have been in 2nd and 3rd for the events and I'd still have been interested and amused by the story.

Why do you care so much about being right? Why does your own opinion and the possibility that others have conflicting opinions summon you to conflict like this?

Chill the frell out. Everybody.

-Fred

Fred Buer wrote:Why do you care so much about being right? Why does your own opinion and the possibility that others have conflicting opinions summon you to conflict like this?

Chill the frell out. Everybody.

-Fred

I don't really care about "being right." I care about being judged as someone who is sour over it. I care that I'm being told it's an opinion and speculation. When in fact there is evidence that supports the claim the girls are too young to compete that has nothing to do with an experts opinion. It's assumed that I care only because the USA came in behind them.

When in fact I'm more interested in the fact that it's going on and everybody knows it but nobody wants to do anything about it. That to me is a much bigger story and far more interesting. It also is something that states a lot about the Chinese Culture. They have no problem lying when you know they're lying and doing it with a wink.

lotus_j wrote:Also has anyone ever decided "officially," if the Panda Bear is even a Bear yet? Last I knew it was still argued they were in the Racoon family.

I'm pretty much stepping out of the Olympic discussion, but I'm gonna stick to the Panda thing... Well I'm not a Vet or anything in the animal field, they are called "Panda Bear" so to me that makes them a Bear... lol
As far as wildlife goes, I'm Fairly ignorant on the classifications of this, that, or the other thing...
If they aren't classified as being in the "Bear" family, that wouldn't matter a whole lot to me, I still think they are some of the Most Adorable Creatures...



It's Amazing that, That ^^^^^^^^^^^
Grows into this VVVVVVVVVV

It's still a bear and it will still try to kill you if you get too close to it.

As a certain drunken chinese person found out a few years ago when climbing into the panda section of the Beijing Zoo.

I find Darwin Awards to be a highly entertaining read some times.

-Fred